I came across an interesting thread on the official forums, talking about CC in World of Warcraft, and its impact on PvP(and in some cases even PvE). When is enough really enough? Crowd control, or 'CC' for short, is very powerful if used properly. I'm sure we've all been on the receiving end of it - and yes - we've been on the giving end of it before too. You can admit it, I sure do, and I have to say it was fun. I played a rogue; I stunlocked casters - sometimes even Warriors - until they were lying face down in the dirt. And I liked it.
But that doesn't mean it's right; that doesn't mean there's a need for it in its diluted nature that we see in the game. World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade added even more Crowd Control to the fray, as well, with the introduction of Cyclone - a "banish" type spell that works on Humanoids. Crowd Control was never really overbearing in Outdoor PvP, or heck, even in the Battlegrounds. It was frustrating at times, but nothing you couldn't overcome. Along come Arenas; Cyclone is an incredibly powerful - probably too much so - spell for Arena matches. It renders one of your teammates completely useless for its duration. The caveat to it, and the biggest 'problem' with it, is the fact that it cannot be removed by any means. You can't Dispel it with your Priest, you can't Cleanse it with your Paladin, you can't break out of it with Immunity abilities or spells, and you can't even remove it with your PvP trinket.
On top of that, Paladins received a talent that can snare up to three targets, as well as Seal of Justice's Judgement effect limiting movement speed to that of normal running - completely negating any movement buffs - be it a mount, an aspect, or even an enchant on your items.
The biggest negative draw for the Arenas is the fact that the originally planned reduction in Crowd Control duration was pulled, so CC spells last as long in the fast-paced, typically one-to-two minute fight Arenas, as they do anywhere else in a PvP encounter. It has gotten to the point where Crowd Control spells win PvP encounters; this should not be the case. Not anywhere near the case, infact. CC should lend itself to PvP, helping guide you to a victory, not ultimately ensuring it. Every class now has at least one form - most multiple forms - of Crowd Control abilities and spells. Whether they snare you, disorient you, or completely remove control of your character through fears, stuns, mind controls, or banishes, they're there. And it doesn't look like they're going away any time soon; at least not in a capacity to bring CC back to what it's meant to be - part of the victory - not the victory.
So what do you think? Is Crowd Control getting out of hand? Has it already been out of hand? Or are people just frustrated that they were the victim of a stunlock, a fear bomb, or that they got "cyclowned"? Inquiring minds want to know; feel free to leave your comments below.
Comments
Of course CC is going to win battles, of course CC is imperative in pve, of course some people think everything is 'out of balance'. Two suggestions: reroll or click faster.
You never played a shaman, do you? Shamans have NO CC at all. Yeah, Frostshock.. only slows, and everything removes that.
To answer fast and ontopic, imo CC is way out of hand because of 2 major reasons : - players fault, whining too much (especially on the US forums), even if devs are trying to keep this balanced, if 50% of the (f.ex.) paladins say that it is all unfair and the world is all against them and gief ranged taunt , well then devs can think that something is wrong ... and they will probably implement it. Then other things become unbalanced, and so on. - second reason is imho the marketing strategy that blizzard has, i mean it's so greedy that could reach to the extent of : buff up the least played class (f.ex), druids are the less main characters, so let's buff them. Make a bit more people buy the BC, cos of the various buffs a certain class has (more than the other classes), and then try to fix it by nerfing that class and buffing another1 in the next patch. Of course this is just a theory and has nothing to do with reality ... or maybe it does ... who knows.
Only mage CS can counter cycone and usually we die first and our CC is the worst in arena - easely dispwllable or trinket usable and heals enemy. I think the main problem at arenas is not CC it's that some classes have clear advantage in arenas like 2 shadowpriests: i hope you wont meet them...
One way to balance PvP is to give players a pvp-tree, just like a talent tree. This would include talents like "chance to resist stun", "Chance to prematurely break CC's", "chance to resist CC" etc. Classes/specs that suffer more from CC could get more points than others. Talents that would increase chance to resist all CC's would ofcourse not have the same % as a chance to resist a specific, fear for instance. And, to not mess up PvE, these talents would only work against other players. Simple, ey? :)
Priest's have one of the worst forms of CC in PvP. I acknolwedge that the do have one Mind Control, but that barely helps. In a 2v2 arena you could "MC" one of the enemies but still get burnt by the other, and aslo you get no spells/moves form the class you mind control.
Stop using comments to this article to whine about how your class sucks or how you lack crowd control or how you lack dispelling abilities or how you lack dps or how you lack healing. There's plenty of that bull on official forums, if you want to whine, go whine there, but leave these comments for constructive discussion that stays -on topic-.
That said, I do not believe that crowd control has gotten out of hand per say. Sure, it is often a decisive factor in PvP, but the question one could ask is, shouldn't it be? A PvP battle usually consists of 3 elements - dps, healing and CC. A fine balance between these key elements ensures a path to success. In my opinion, CC should be just as important as healing and dps is, and let's be frank - CC alone won't win battles for you. In 5 vs 5 you will still need both dps and healing in order to come out victorious.
That said, I do not believe that WoW PvP is balanced by any means. The infamous rock-paper-scissor analogy holds, classes just change positions in it and go from rock to paper to scissors as new nerfs and buffs come along. I do not believe that WoW will ever be a rock-rock-rock game, where all classes have an equal chance against all other classes. Another question arises though: should it really be like that?
i do believe crowd control is out of hand, i play a warrior who's on the recieving end of every concievable type of crowd control, i hate pvp because of it. every other class stunlocks, fears, traps, frost novas, slows and kites us to death.
but you have to understand that pvp is group vs. group, the gameplay is built for group combat, and crowd control is tolerable when you fight in groups. but CC in 2-5 man encounters is horriblly overpowered imo.
on the PVE aspect of CC, i believe they make it too 'necessary' to use CC, Shattered Halls for example is extremly difficult if the group make-up cant CC 3 elite humanoids, cause you frequently face 6-7 elites pull; what if your group has no warlocks, no mage or no rogues, its damn hard.
rollo:
True, but it can be very effective CC in a 2vs2 Arena, as you won't always fight casters. I agree though, Shaman are a tricky class when it comes to CC - I'd consider Grounding Totem a CC totem as well, since it can negate spells completely over time.
Basically what it boils down to is: if the team you're playing is smart and takes out the totems, Shaman are weak, but if they don't kill the totems asap then you have fairly amazing tools at your disposal.
I would just like to say that shaman are so fucked over right I think Its more plausible for me to get struck by lightning than to consider what they have to be any form of CC.
"Every class now has at least one form - most multiple forms - of Crowd Control abilities and spells."
Shaman "crowd control" sucks, be honest. All you gotta do is hit the totem once with a wand.
Here's an idea to make it all "fair":
Random ability loss. This round you enter the arena and you can't sheep/pig. Next round you can but you can't blink or whatever. To top it off, all weapons do the same amount of damage and you all have the same armor as the highest armored guy for both sides.
Silly isn't it? But if we're looking for fair, there you go. Otherwise, you just have to realize that every class has some function that is horrible to another class while only mediocre to most. How often have you heard how ANGRY casters are about the hunter silencing shot? 3 seconds... 3!! Reverse that and think how a mage for instance can dole out 3000 damage 2-4 times a minute (depending on many factors). As a hunter, I'd be lucky to see 3000 damage twice in a fight. Rogues give hunters fits for the most part. Every class has its strengths and weaknesses (except mage and rogue, but thats another discussion).
Point is, there is not a single bit of balance in PVP and to expect there to be is ridiculous. You fight with the gear and abilities you have, same as real combat. PVP is incredibly fun and incredibly frustrating. If you can't handle that, I suggest a re-roll on PVE or RP.
If anything can be said its that Blizzard seems to have lost control of the "balance" they've sought in the game. Casters whined about being weak, now they're superman. To make it happen, they f00ked the hunter pets, weakened the warrior in favor of tanking druids, etc. In a few months the outrage will be too much and magic folks will get "nerfed" and you'll see other "fixes". What Blizzard needs to do is stop listening to the cry babies. Develop a plan where you'll see progression of classes instead of Buff/adjust/nerf <repeat> as well as actually fix the problems brought to their attention. They should also truly test out these instances so they quit bugging at the end. Blizzard also needs to quit worrying about stupid non-gameplay related fixes (see current patch on display of credits).
Mind you, I'm a 70 Hunter who is still awaiting the fixes needed (no, not nerfs) to the hunter class (and detailed on Blizzard site).
its rediculous, you should be able to get out of anything with teh iwin button called blink, jeez blizz.
and um... buff sap... it blows
Developer
Its rediculous, you should be able to blink/escape artist, or trinket your way out of any type of movement imparing effect, wether it be cyclone, ice nova, disorient, fear, or anything of the sort. It makes dual mage, mage/rogue, or druid/mage/rogue groups unstoppable. Its really not fair when teams who are good and organized get beat by groups that just have alot of CC. I have a 2v2 arena team, and we always seem to break even, because we kick ass against a team with little/as much CC as we do, but just cannot even enjoy a battle with as much CC as there is right now. Im more worried about running karazhan right now until they fix the Arena dynamics.
Well maybe it's that there will be a Trinket, or maybe added to the normal PvP trinket, to remove the Cyclone effect. That would balance it out quite well.
But for the rest I think that it's ok, there aren't THAT much Druids on the EU servers around, so I personally don't find it any hard. And besides, that there's a little upcoming nerf for Druids, maybe Blizzard did that on purpose ?
Warlock Fear has been nerfed, but about that I have to say, that this nerf isn't really anything .. A Fear usually lasts 5 seconds in PvP for me.
I personally think that everything in CC in BG's is okay. I find it no problem that a Druid uses their abilities to win from me, why should they waste their mana anyways ?